SWITZERLAND FORUM

[cklaurence]

That's the whole idea of separation of church and state, Em, and why the religious zealots are so dangerous when they get involved in politics. They immediately bring their 'family values' into play and start dictating what we should believe (right away with the "under God"clause in the Pledge of Allegiance, prayer in school rather than a moment of silence, and of course, women's rights go right down the tubes). That's why the far right frightens me so. The big problem is that when a country is in such disarray as ours is now, that's when it is ripe for takeover by a group such as the Nazis. History repeats itself. No one seems to ever learn...

[Emeritus]

That doesn't sound much like my church, whose causes run to things like civil rights and the environment. Of course, we are in bad odor with the Evangelicals because we have women and gay priests and bishops. I guess that religion isn't monolithic. Sarah and I had very different ideas, but we managed to live together quite comfortably because our values were the same. We were pretty unhappy with the conservatives for usurping the family values issue.

[cklaurence]

Peter and I share the same values and beliefs, but because he cared a great deal about my grandmother, he chose to convert before we were married, knowing it would make her happy. He did it privately, not in one of those big classroom settings with reformed Jews. We found, through one of the attorneys my mom worked with, a most amazing Orthodox Rabbi, who met with us privately at his home, in his study .My mom used to say that he converted me as well, lol. The main reading he gave Peter was the book, THE SOURCE. If you've never read it, I recommend it. Anyway, it was a wonderful experience, and all he asked was that we raise our children Jewish. He felt it was important to give the children a solid religious upbringing and then once they were finished with high school, letting them go on with their lives, choosing whatever way they wished to go--which we did.
As it happens, Josh (our oldest), due to a couple of incidents at the elementary school that pissed me off no little bit, went to a private religious school through third grade. After that he was transferred to public school, but I guess it made its mark on him because he has chosen a career in Jewish education. Not teaching, but he is Director of Youth Programming at the largest Temple in South Florida now, and his goal is to eventually be the Director of Education for the entire program. If not at this Temple, which is building to have a complete school from pre to high school, then at another. Our other kids are not nearly so observant, but do celebrate the holidays with us. I try to observe the holidays for the kids regardless of my renegade beliefs.

[Baglady]

@ Switzerland, I just won't make political or social judgmental comments, one of the things I've always liked about Swiss was that it was just NFL convo but totally understand when only a few are here...

That said, Indy has totally ROCKED this wk as SB host imo. I visited SB village last Sun, the pic is at Monument Circle where every NFL team was represented with an Indy car. Beauty of the SB in Indy is everything is within walking distance downtown....
Love the NYG chances but have no clue as to how it turns out..... 31 - 24 NYG - just my guess...

Enjoy the game~

[Emeritus]

Hi, Baglady! Actually, ck and I both agree with you about the politics. It is just that when nobody else shows up for a long time it gets to be a private conversation. Thank you for bringing us back on topic. Is the crowd for the Super Bowl bigger than the one for the Indianapolis 500?

[cklaurence]

Hey Ms Bags! Em is correct. We've been alone here so much of the time, it's almost as though we have our own private meeting space. It's always a pleasure when our old family members stop in and change it up for us, though--especially when it's someone special like you and you are, for the first time (I believe) experiencing the excitement of SB in your City. It looks as though everyone there is getting into the action and taking part in the fun. Indy is just small town enough to have the big city flavor, but allow for the comfort of people from everywhere. I hope you're taking advantage of it and having some SB fun, since the actual SB has been priced out of range for anyone or anything but the corporations and the very wealthy--sadly.

[cklaurence]

[color=#008080]MAZEL TOV TO MS BAGS! I HOPE AT LAST THIS WILL FINALLY, ONCE AND FOR ALL, PUT TO BED THE TALK ABOUT ELI MANNING NOT BEING A 'A NON-ELITE NFL QUARTERBACK IN THE NFL ONCE AND FOR ALL AND FOREVER. HE WAS STUNNING--UNDER PRESSURE FROM THE BEGINNING THROUGH THE END OF THE GAME. HE DID NOT FLINCH, EVER--FOR EVEN ONE MOMENT... AS ALWAYS, IT IS GOOD TO SEE THE PATRIOTS LOSE--ESPECIALLY SUCH A BIG GAME. I FELT SORRY FOR THE TEAM, BUT I REALLY CAN'T STAND BB!!! [/color]

[Emeritus]

I found it an exciting game between two very good teams. It could have gone either way. I congratulate the fans of both teams for getting there.

[Baglady]

WOW, what a game - a well officiated (imo) competitive game that yes, could have gone either way - just what the SB should be.
Some don't get it but having 2 teams works for me - esp this season!

CK, I totally get your attitude toward NE and BB but you know I was in Miami just 2 yrs ago and remember all too well how painful it is to lose. I've always respected the NE fans that deserve it and their success....

Em, interesting, I also figured if Indy could host the 500 (and Final Four) why not the SB. While the Brickyard 400 in recent yrs might be a bigger draw than the 500, it's about 500,000 - but an entirely different event than the SB. While Indy has a 'hick' town rep, think it's about the 13th largest US city. Mom in NY tells me even the harsh NY media has given nothing but stellar reviews of Indy as SB host - likely even more today based on the final score....

Congrats to the NYG - SB champs and Eli, 2 time SB MVP

[Emeritus]

I never think about the fans of the winning team. Hey, they will be fine. I always feel sorry for the fans of the losing team. All of their hopes have been dashed and the poor sports come around to taunt them. It isn't that their team didn't give their all - it just wasn't their day. It could so easily have gone the other way, but it didn't and all is lost. Letting go of that must be hard.

[Emeritus]

In one of those items that makes one wonder why anybody bothered to report it, we are told that Matt Schaub's wife was picked "Hottest Player's Wife" for the second consecutive year. Aren't we all better for knowing that?

[cklaurence]

Hi Everyone! Remember me? I'm sorry, I left so fast that I didn't even have time to say good-bye. My beloved Aunt passed away and although at first I wasn't going to go back up to NY because of all my flying issues, I was too drawn by my cousins, especially one of my aunt's daughters. I actually just went online, made the reservation and went straight to the airport. I guess some things are just more important than your own silly fears, and I'm so glad I did it, It was wonderful being with my family. I needed that bonding and the chance to meet all those people from my aunt's life who had such incredible memories of her. She will be sorely missed...

Meanwhile, I caught whatever plague was going around up there--considering my immune system was down from having 4 airplane flights in one week--and I am absolutely miserable. I'm hoping someone takes mercy on me and brings some home made chicken soup. I have such a hankering for it.,..

[Emeritus]

I'm afraid that my chicken soup is homemade at the local deli. My cooking runs mostly to meat, I must admit. It is the Mardi Gras season here, but I'm avoiding everything because I don't want to catch anything. We Episcopalians leave the Mardi Gras partying to the Catholics. We follow the English tradition of eating pancakes on what we call Shrove Tuesday. It might not be as exciting as the parades, but our heads are in much better shape on Ash Wednesday.

[cklaurence]

Seems I'm being punished for not being well enough to take food out of the freezer for dinner here. Everyone took care of themselves for dinner and didn't even offer me a sandwich. I feel too rotten to make the trip all the way downstairs for anything but letting my dog out and even that's a stretch, so it's been water for me all day. I suppose I'll survive, but I'm not a happy camper!

[Emeritus]

That is unwise of them. "If Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!" That's the way that it was when I was a boy and when I was married. I warned our son about it, too.

[cklaurence]

Well, it seems this group is willing to take their chances, Em. Poor Peter is stuck working today and had to leave at 7, and the two kids that still have residence here are out in the world, so it looks like I am stuck fending for myself again today. It's nearing 11:30 and I guess I'm going to break down and get myself some breakfast, as I've decided there's no way breakfast is going to make its way up to me. Maybe I'll just get lunch and pretend I had breakfast, so I don't have to think about going down again.

Looks like we're going to finally get a little cool weather. It's saying we're going down to high forties tonight, which is a nice break. Only two cool nights, but I'll take them! The weather in NY was very mild (low 50s during the day, 40s at night), until my last night, when it went into the 30s and we had a dusting of snow, which was gone by the a.m. They are having one of the mildest winters on record, which made everything all the sadder because my Aunt Thel loved the mild winters. She adored walking and when the winters weren't snowy she'd be out every day walking the City streets and taking advantage of everything NYC had to offer. She never tired of the museums, theaters or anything else in life. I sure wish I believed in an after life, Em. The thought that my aunt, dad, and their other brother and sister are together again would sure be comforting. That's the rotten thing about being an atheist, a skeptic and all those things that I just can't help being...

[Emeritus]

That's the rotten thing about being an atheist, a skeptic and all those things that I just can't help being...

I tried it both ways and found disbelief just as much effort as belief, since there is no logical way to prove either proposition. But disbelief is a negative energy and much more draining. So I just made a decision to believe. I think that it is an act of the will. Believing gives you a lot more resources.

[cklaurence]

I have tried to believe, Em. I WANT to believe. I just can't find a way to do it. It makes no sense to me at all. No god could be so cruel as to create a world so awful. So much beauty with so much anger and ugliness. War and hatred from the beginning of time. The prejudice.The inequities. I know it's ridiculous to think that there could be a world that was run like Disney, but if there were really a god, why would there be all these factions? Why would every religion be pitted against every other instead of accepting each other and appreciating their right to believe as they wish? When I was young, I thought it couldn't get worse, and now? I can't see how it will ever get better. I would love to just give it all over to a god and believe that it will all be solved when I die. It would certainly make this life easier. Believing that this is my heaven and hell and that when I finally close my eyes forever there is nothing, does not give me any comfort at all; but no matter how much I try, too many questions, too much frustration...

[Emeritus]

Because God is not evil, he incapable of producing anything evil. However, he did give mankind the power of choice. Some choose to do evil. They may dress is up in a noble-sounding cause, but they have chosen evil. God has nothing to do with that. Some have simply chosen to misuse the gift that we were given. The biggest mistake that we can make is to judge God by people.

[cklaurence]

It's not only about the poor choices that people make, Em. It's about the unfairness of the starting line in life. The deformities. The illnesses. The poverty (or privilege). The intelligence (or lack of it). The opportunities (or not). We aren't even given an even start. Are you following me? Perhaps if everyone were given the same start in life, like say, in Monopoly--perfect health, same bank account, IQ, living conditions, educational opportunities, and so on, then maybe (JUST MAYBE) I could buy into some kind of a god. Reality, however, throws me too much of a curve ball. It just plain sucks. You are an amazing man. You've taken hits throughout your life that someone else might not have been able to pull through and continue living. I don't know if I would have your strength, and certainly if I were a believer, I'd pray every night that I would never be tested. You have not only gone on, but you have kept your humor and continue to enjoy sports (I mention sports first because of where we are), and all the other great things life has to offer--AND you are a believer! Someone else might have ended their own life or ended up so mentally disturbed they would be hospitalized for the rest of their time on Earth. Worse, some would turn to crime and blame it on all the nasty things 'life' threw at them.

You and I and many of our Swiss family are examples of people who have managed to deal with whatever life has brought their way (some better than others ). What about those born to poverty in countries that will never offer an opportunity for anything but short, miserable lives, dodging their inevitable early deaths? Or those unlucky enough to be the targets of terrorists, or in the line of fire of nations always at war? You get my point, I know. Going further isn't going to make it any clearer, and I'm sure you've thought of all of this yourself many times over. Every time I hear of a child dying, or see someone with cerebral palsy or a deformity of any kind, or even have to deal with an incident like the one with my Aunt, it takes me out of the realm of the ability to believe. People might laugh at me for being so greedy. C.K.! Really! Your aunt was 96 years old. Get a grip! I don't care if she was 196 years old, Em. She was a brilliant, healthy, contributing member of society--out for her daily 10 block walk to Trader Joe's to pick up some groceries. She worked until she was 92 years old, and then only retired because her boss was finally retiring. His son actually wanted her to stay on and work for him, but she decided to call it a day. Anyway, some lunatic is free and able to go and kill again and my aunt is dead and gone. What's to believe in here, Em?

Okay. Time to get off my soap box. Our date for tonight just called. Hit with the stomach flu. I know it's awful of me, but I am so grateful to hear that, because I am so sick with whatever this stuff is that I caught in NY, but was pulling myself up because we'd made these plans so long ago. I feel awful about him getting the stomach flu, but so relieved that I don't have to get out of my sick bed.

Got my first bill for Dolphin tix today. What a hoot. Billing in February now. In Yiddish they call that "chutzpah." In English, I guess the translation would be "balls." Take care my friend.

[Emeritus]

I have a good friend who will be forty-three years old next month. She has lived all of her life with cerebral palsy. She has it about as bad as it gets. She is deformed and bedridden. She has never in her life been able to walk or go to the bathroom unassisted. The poorest and most disadvantaged person on the planet has had more of a life than she has had. She has just survived in that twisted little body.

She refuses to feel sorry for herself. She will not regret the nomal human pleasure that she has never had. She has a rich interior life, fed by constant reading. When she was young she was thought to be slow. A great teacher discovered that she was highly intelligent and found more great teachers for her. From her nursing home bed she has earned five college degrees. Nobody looking at her would ever guess as the resources that she possesses. I visit her most days because she always reinforces my faith.

[cklaurence]

I know people like that, Em. My heart breaks probably most of all for those who can overcome with such grace. Tell me stories like that and it only makes me angrier and less apt to accept there is a god--or at least a god I want to believe will give me any kind of peace in an after life. This is the stuff that makes me think that if there is a god, it is an evil, mean-spirited god, that set the world on a path for destruction, which clearly has been successful. That being the case, if there is an afterlife, I don't think I want to know about it, for it certainly can't be something better. Frightening, actually.

I dunno. Religion has always been something of a struggle for me. I can't ever remember believing in it. Even as a small child when I went to Temple with my parents or Sunday school with other children. I never had faith. I always questioned why my friends had different religious beliefs than I. Why did they believe in Christ and if they did, why shouldn't I? Or if I didn't, why did they?

I will say this. I hope I'm wrong and you're all right. It would be a tremendous surprise. I'd probably end up in Hell for all my questioning, although I must get some points for living a clean life, caring about my fellow men and women and being loyal to the Dolphins win or lose, right? No, seriously--you know what I'm saying. It would at least be interesting to learn the answers to my questions as to why all they inequities exist, and why people like your friend can't jump out of their beds and enjoy life, rather than live in twisted agony knowing life only through books and friends like you who are kind enough to take the time to visit and share the world with them. It's all too much for me, and that is what has made me an atheist...

[Emeritus]

When I was a kid I had problems with the Bible stories too. Then a priest told me to not get bogged down in the details of the stories and to look for the lessons that they were intended to teach. That worked a lot better for me. As I've said, I've tried it both ways. In my experience people who refuse to believe are unwilling to surrender the control of their lives. After all, if you have a relationship with God, who will be in charge? The thing is, we are NEVER in control. Everything can be wiped out in an instant. There is nothing that we can depend on always having, not even those that we love. We all have to face our own mortality. It isn't just the victims who die, ck.

To me, we only have two choices. We can believe in God and his purpose for us, or we can accept that we are just an infestation on a muddy ball, lately developed and soon to be wiped out. Without faith, there is no purpose in anything. Hamlet asks why we should not just commit suicide and put ourselves out of our misery. That's why I decided that I would believe. I screwed up my courage and took the leap of faith not knowing where I would land. It changed everything for me - my whole perspective on life. As your friend, I hope that you find the way.

[cklaurence]

Thank you, Em. I appreciate your support and philosophy of how you came to believe. I have a couple of other close friends who aren't "born agains," but re-examined their faith later in life and have dedicated themselves more to God now. They are much more peaceful as a result and have encouraged me to also stop fighting my demons and find some faith. My oldest son would be happiest of all if I could find my way to accepting God, or at least find some faith.

I'm working on it. I have these discussions more and more. For the longest time I wouldn't even talk about it. I just kept it to myself because I didn't want to have any dialogue with anyone about it, so I guess I'm at least opening myself up. Now look at this Whitney Houston. Graced with everything. Looks, incredible voice, connections so she was able to move up to the top when she was practically a child--dead at 48. She had it all and blew it because she couldn't keep her hands off drugs. She had no accident or misfortune that caused her to start taking drugs--just wanted more of a rush, it was never enough for her. Greed. I just don't get it.

[Emeritus]

To change the subject just a tiny bit, how are you occupying yourself on Sunday afternoons now that football season is over? I always find something to study eventually, but it takes me time to adjust.

[Emeritus]

As for Whitney Houston, she had an emptiness in her that she couldn't fill. I have seen it happen to friends. There was something missing in their lives and they tried frantically to find it, experimenting with ever wilder and more dangerous thrills. Some did it because there was something in themselves that they couldn't bear to examine. Others just found nothing to believe in and therefore no security. What was tragic is that nobody could do one damn thing about it. When people won't accept the solution there is no help. Every one of those people had a lot to offer the world, but they couldn't help themselves.

[cklaurence]

You are too kind. I can't give her that much credit.

You know who I've been thinking a lot about? Brett Favre. He sure disappeared this year, didn't he? When he retired, he totally retired. I figured to see him doing some television this year or something--anything; but we haven't heard a word. Nothing. Zip. Like he never existed. What do you think that's all about? I know he didn't leave under the best of circumstances, but I thought surely with his personality he'd rise above it. Everyone knows how much I like him. I hope he re-surfaces some time soon...

[Emeritus]

Frankly, I think that Bret was overexposed. I think that people got tired of the soap opera dramas about whether he would retire of play for another team or what. I think that he would be smart to stay low for a couple of years. That way when he came back, people would just remember how entertaining he was and his enthusiasm for the game. It would make him more marketable.

[cklaurence]

Oops. Just saw your other post about Sunday afternoons. Unfortunately, the past two weeks have been spoken for with my Aunt's horrible attack and subsequent passing. Flying to NY twice and being with family--I didn't even know what day it was. Now I'm home, with this plague I picked up in NY or on one of the flights, so football loss hasn't yet set in too hard. Remember--my team was pretty much out of it from the beginning of the season, so I was in a different place this year anyway.

I'm waiting for my website to be finished and up, checking out the proofs and finally the novel has gone to print. Now I have to decide what I'm keeping and what I'm destroying from the twenty or so chapters I'd begun of the sequel to the original novel. Then the arduous task of research begins again, because one thing I'm sure of is that I'm not going in the direction my former publisher wanted, so I'm going to have plenty to keep me busy. Ideally, the sequel should be finished by the end of this year. No more stalling. I stopped before because I couldn't face the search for a new agent and/or publisher, and I don't work well without a deadline. I have no more excuses. Excellent timing--it will definitely help me deal with off season.
It's been so long since I've seriously written, I hope I still have it in me. I guess we'll find out...

[cklaurence]

Good call on Brett. I miss him already, though.